[00:00:00] That doesn't reflect reality,
[00:00:01] this idea of very linear, predictable careers
[00:00:04] where there are enough promotions for everybody,
[00:00:06] that that doesn't actually reflect people's experience.
[00:00:09] And it also doesn't reflect people's individuality.
[00:00:13] People want to do different things.
[00:00:15] They don't necessarily want a career based on conformity.
[00:00:19] They want the choice to develop
[00:00:21] in the direction that's right for them.
[00:00:23] - Hello, everybody.
[00:00:24] Welcome to season four of Better at Work.
[00:00:26] We're delighted to be back with you.
[00:00:27] I'm Carl Quinlan.
[00:00:29] I've got some exciting news for you.
[00:00:30] We're now not just in your ears, but on your screens too.
[00:00:35] That's right, Better at Work is now available
[00:00:38] to watch on YouTube or Spotify.
[00:00:40] Explore our conversations with some remarkable guests.
[00:00:44] And new this season, listeners questions episodes
[00:00:49] with my lovely co-host Annette
[00:00:51] on the Better at Work YouTube channel and Spotify.
[00:00:55] You can also simply keep listening
[00:00:57] wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:01:00] Now to kick off season four,
[00:01:02] I sat down with a very special guest,
[00:01:04] someone I've admired for a long time, Helen Topper.
[00:01:08] Now Helen is co-author of the Sunday Times bestseller,
[00:01:11] The Squiggly Career, and of course,
[00:01:13] she's CEO of Amazing If.
[00:01:16] Helen has helped thousands of people re-imagine their career
[00:01:20] from climbing that traditional ladder
[00:01:22] to something far more exciting,
[00:01:24] full of possibility and squiggly.
[00:01:28] But when you flip to squiggly thinking,
[00:01:31] you don't talk about levels, you talk about learning,
[00:01:32] you don't talk about grades, you talk about growth,
[00:01:34] you don't talk about titles, you talk about talents,
[00:01:36] you don't talk about plans, you talk about possibilities.
[00:01:38] It's just, it's a much more curious and open way
[00:01:43] of looking at your career.
[00:01:44] What I loved about this chat
[00:01:46] is how practical Helen's advice is
[00:01:49] and how she takes us
[00:01:50] into her personal career transformation journey.
[00:01:53] She realized so many people are stuck
[00:01:56] chasing ladders and titles,
[00:01:58] but what really holds us back isn't the structure,
[00:02:02] it's a lack of confidence.
[00:02:04] That was the game-changing realization in her own career.
[00:02:08] If you've ever felt stuck
[00:02:09] or like someone else is actually writing your story,
[00:02:12] this episode is for you.
[00:02:14] This is a big one to have Helen on the show.
[00:02:16] She's joining us here from our studios in London.
[00:02:18] Welcome, Helen, to Better at Work.
[00:02:20] Aw, thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:21] I can't wait for the conversation.
[00:02:22] It's such a long time we've been planning this.
[00:02:24] I know, I know, I'm really looking forward to it.
[00:02:26] Now look, we start all of our discussions
[00:02:28] with all of our guests the same way,
[00:02:30] which, where did it all start for you?
[00:02:33] What happened in your early life
[00:02:36] or along the way that drove this interest
[00:02:38] in helping people have better careers?
[00:02:40] Yeah, I mean, it definitely didn't start with that.
[00:02:42] Selfishly, I think it was very, like, my career.
[00:02:45] I think that's definitely where it started.
[00:02:47] And I have always been very, very driven,
[00:02:51] very, very ambitious.
[00:02:53] And I think I saw the ladder
[00:02:56] as, like, the ideal version of success.
[00:02:59] And early on in my career,
[00:03:02] I think that was, like, indicated by, like, graduate schemes.
[00:03:05] I mean, graduate schemes are the way to go.
[00:03:07] In careers, particularly like traditional grad schemes,
[00:03:09] when careers look like ladders,
[00:03:10] you start on a grad scheme.
[00:03:12] And I like them so much, I did three back-to-back.
[00:03:14] You were joking.
[00:03:15] I loved it.
[00:03:16] I loved it 'cause it was like ready-made progression.
[00:03:18] Oh my God.
[00:03:19] So I did this one that was, like, affiliated with my course,
[00:03:21] which is where I ended up meeting my business partner back.
[00:03:23] Like, this is 2001, where we kind of met each other.
[00:03:27] 2001, yeah.
[00:03:28] Gosh, gosh.
[00:03:29] Yeah, early, early days, we met each other there.
[00:03:31] I did, like, a boot sort of graduate scheme,
[00:03:33] an early version of it.
[00:03:34] Then I went and did one at Britvic.
[00:03:35] Then I went and did an advanced graduate scheme
[00:03:37] at Procter & Gamble.
[00:03:38] And then I kind of realized,
[00:03:39] oh, I need to get a job.
[00:03:41] I need to get a job.
[00:03:42] But I think I saw them as a sign of success.
[00:03:45] And, you know, that was sort of this accelerated progression
[00:03:49] that I was looking for.
[00:03:51] And then I hit the jobs.
[00:03:53] And I realized then that a lot of the learning
[00:03:56] that I was looking for didn't seem to happen every day
[00:03:59] in a normal job.
[00:04:00] And that these ideas of kind of wait your turn,
[00:04:04] do your time, stay in your lane.
[00:04:07] Like, these started to be some of the things
[00:04:09] that I was seeing.
[00:04:10] And I forced it quite a lot.
[00:04:12] Like, I moved across a couple of different companies.
[00:04:14] I really tried to force the point.
[00:04:16] I was like, I'm not sure that this is
[00:04:18] what a good career looks like.
[00:04:19] And I had a degree of success in doing that.
[00:04:22] But I think that was because I was so ambitious
[00:04:24] and driven and so confident.
[00:04:26] And I started to realize that other people
[00:04:28] were feeling quite stuck in traditional structures
[00:04:33] and they didn't have the same level of confidence
[00:04:36] or support in navigating it as I did.
[00:04:39] And I guess it was that sort of insight
[00:04:43] that was shared with my friend now, business partner,
[00:04:46] that led us to say, well, how can we help people?
[00:04:49] What can we do?
[00:04:50] And so that was about 2013,
[00:04:51] where we were both sharing very similar reflections
[00:04:54] on our careers and our experience.
[00:04:57] And also this insight that other people were finding
[00:05:01] the same situations but didn't have the ability
[00:05:04] to change it themselves.
[00:05:05] They needed some help that wasn't available.
[00:05:07] - Well, so you saw that kind of consistent gap
[00:05:10] that other people were having as well.
[00:05:12] - Yeah, they would say I feel stuck
[00:05:13] and I don't know what to do about it.
[00:05:15] I want to do something different,
[00:05:16] but I don't know how to make it happen.
[00:05:18] And what also seemed to be true
[00:05:20] is the more senior you got in a company,
[00:05:23] the more career support you could access.
[00:05:25] - Oh God, yes.
[00:05:26] That is so true.
[00:05:27] And it's almost like you want to give that
[00:05:30] to people a bit sooner, right?
[00:05:31] - Absolutely.
[00:05:32] And I really don't understand why we don't do that,
[00:05:35] why the majority of the workforce
[00:05:37] are given the minority of the support.
[00:05:40] It doesn't stack up to me 'cause don't you want?
[00:05:42] - It's almost like they don't want them
[00:05:43] to have an a-ha moment too early
[00:05:45] 'cause they wanna work 'em for a few years.
[00:05:47] - Well, but then I kind of think,
[00:05:49] well, if they don't have it,
[00:05:50] then they'll probably leave to get it elsewhere
[00:05:51] and water waste for everybody.
[00:05:54] So we kind of had this principle
[00:05:55] of well, let's democratize career development.
[00:05:57] Let's not limit learning by level.
[00:05:59] Let's make this accessible to everybody.
[00:06:01] And that was a real guiding thought in our early days.
[00:06:05] And it's definitely become part of our company now,
[00:06:08] but I mean, we didn't have a company in 2013.
[00:06:10] We just had this insight.
[00:06:11] - You were doing still your job
[00:06:12] and you were doing a bit of it at the weekends
[00:06:14] and everything, right? - Yeah.
[00:06:15] They were like running like these little evening sessions
[00:06:17] that six people turned up to.
[00:06:18] - But it's such a good way to do it.
[00:06:19] You know, like, and I know we'll talk about that.
[00:06:21] Like, you know, how do you kind of look for opportunities?
[00:06:25] Maybe when you're in a career you don't love,
[00:06:28] how do you actually find, I suppose, opportunities
[00:06:31] to do things that you think you're gonna love more?
[00:06:33] - Yeah.
[00:06:34] - Now, for any of our listeners
[00:06:35] that never heard of the Squeakly Career,
[00:06:37] because we know some of our listeners in Australia
[00:06:39] and the US, et cetera, haven't.
[00:06:41] How would you explain, what is a Squeakly Career?
[00:06:44] - Yeah, yeah, no, it's a really good, let's start there.
[00:06:47] Let's start there.
[00:06:48] So we are trying to contrast
[00:06:50] with the idea of the ladder-like career.
[00:06:52] And so if we start there,
[00:06:54] the ladder-like career says that you pick a path,
[00:06:57] you progress by going up the ladder,
[00:06:59] you start talking about, you know, the next step.
[00:07:01] The assumption is that success is seniority
[00:07:04] and that's what everybody wants from work
[00:07:05] and, you know, that promotions are possible
[00:07:07] 'cause that's all sort of the ingredients
[00:07:09] of ladder-like careers.
[00:07:11] Our perspective is that that doesn't reflect reality.
[00:07:14] This idea of very linear, predictable careers
[00:07:16] where there are enough promotions for everybody,
[00:07:19] that that doesn't actually reflect people's experience.
[00:07:22] And it also doesn't reflect people's individuality.
[00:07:25] People want to do different things.
[00:07:28] They don't necessarily want a career based on conformity.
[00:07:31] They want the choice to develop in the direction
[00:07:35] that's right for them.
[00:07:35] So Squeakly Career, we believe, is a better way
[00:07:39] of people thinking about their career.
[00:07:41] It gives them the freedom and flexibility
[00:07:43] to develop in different directions.
[00:07:45] But it also, it presents to people that actually
[00:07:48] your career is probably not going to be predictable.
[00:07:51] You and I are going to need to develop skills
[00:07:52] we have not got yet.
[00:07:54] We are potentially going to do jobs
[00:07:55] that don't even exist yet.
[00:07:57] And if we are open to that, we'll create more opportunities.
[00:08:00] But if we are close to that, if we're not proactive,
[00:08:04] if we're not exploring, if we're not curious,
[00:08:06] then actually our careers become quite vulnerable
[00:08:08] and we don't want people to be vulnerable
[00:08:10] in a context of change.
[00:08:12] We want people to use that change to fuel their career
[00:08:17] rather than mean that it sort of leaves them feeling lost.
[00:08:20] That's not what we want.
[00:08:20] - I love what you, I heard you say this
[00:08:23] on another podcast recently.
[00:08:24] You said think, I think you said think talent not titles.
[00:08:28] And I thought it was really interesting
[00:08:30] 'cause what you're trying to get people to think about
[00:08:32] is what are their unique talents
[00:08:35] and actually how can you accelerate those
[00:08:38] as opposed to thinking in,
[00:08:39] I've got to reach this next title.
[00:08:41] - Yeah, well, there's a lot of ladder like language
[00:08:45] that goes along with that concept.
[00:08:46] So you end up, if you look at careers like ladders,
[00:08:48] you end up with words like,
[00:08:50] or kind of a fixation on titles.
[00:08:52] And everything has to sound similar
[00:08:54] and a bit more senior to what I currently do.
[00:08:57] So you get the kind of junior executive direct,
[00:09:00] it's all in the same path, all a bit more senior.
[00:09:02] And you end up talking about plans,
[00:09:04] the perfect career plan.
[00:09:06] You talk about promotions, you talk about levels,
[00:09:08] you talk about grades.
[00:09:10] But when you flip to squiggly thinking,
[00:09:13] you don't talk about levels, you talk about learning,
[00:09:15] you don't talk about grades, you talk about growth,
[00:09:17] you don't talk about titles, you talk about talents,
[00:09:18] you don't talk about plans, you talk about possibilities.
[00:09:21] It's just, it's a much more curious and open way
[00:09:25] of looking at your career.
[00:09:26] And the language is actually a really fundamental part
[00:09:30] 'cause if you were my manager,
[00:09:32] I'd be talking to you about my career.
[00:09:34] And if I talked to you about the next job title I want
[00:09:36] in Kahal's company or the next level I want to get to,
[00:09:40] it's quite a closed conversation.
[00:09:42] But if I talk to you about the talents I want to be known for
[00:09:45] and the learning I want to gain so I can grow,
[00:09:47] very different conversation.
[00:09:49] - Yeah, it's interesting 'cause having myself worked
[00:09:52] in large companies for too long,
[00:09:54] there's a lot around job architecture and okay,
[00:09:58] this is what's expected at this level here,
[00:10:01] the core capabilities you need, et cetera.
[00:10:03] And I do think people's brain goes to,
[00:10:05] "Okay, I've got to do that, I've got to do a project
[00:10:07] that's going to allow me to do X."
[00:10:09] And sometimes they move away
[00:10:11] from what they're actually really good at
[00:10:13] and they lose a bit of spark I think when they do,
[00:10:16] not everyone but some.
[00:10:18] - Well, I think, so one of the squiggly skills we talk about
[00:10:21] is the importance of values.
[00:10:22] And I think, and values are what motivates and drives you.
[00:10:25] And if you don't have an awareness of that,
[00:10:27] I think you fall into the trap of validation.
[00:10:29] So I think a lot of that is,
[00:10:30] well, I need to tick that box and you kind of lose sight of,
[00:10:34] "Is it the box I really want to tick?"
[00:10:37] Because you just think,
[00:10:37] "Well, I need to be successful and senior,
[00:10:40] so I've got to tick that box."
[00:10:42] And I'm not sure box ticking is people always
[00:10:45] being at their best to your point.
[00:10:47] - I totally agree.
[00:10:48] And I didn't have this question,
[00:10:49] but just as you were talking there,
[00:10:51] I was thinking about men and women,
[00:10:52] do you think they squiggle differently in terms of,
[00:10:57] because my experience of women is that they are often
[00:11:00] the ones who do take time out to have children, et cetera.
[00:11:05] And then they have to come back
[00:11:07] and almost have a different role.
[00:11:09] I've often seen it in big corporates
[00:11:10] where they leave a job as a manager, they come back in.
[00:11:15] It's like, "Oh, actually you want to work three days a week.
[00:11:17] You can't go back to be a manager.
[00:11:19] You're going to have to come back in as a different role."
[00:11:21] Whereas men, if they take paternity leave,
[00:11:25] it's usually four weeks, et cetera,
[00:11:28] they're back into their normal job.
[00:11:29] That was just as coming in on the train thinking,
[00:11:32] "Do you see a difference in how they squiggle?"
[00:11:35] - There's actually some, just broadly,
[00:11:37] some interesting differences that we kind of see
[00:11:39] with gender on the skills, on the career moments,
[00:11:42] and also gender on proactive engagement in this.
[00:11:46] So I can share what we see.
[00:11:47] We see women more proactively engaging
[00:11:54] in learning about their career.
[00:11:57] So picking up squiggly career, for example.
[00:11:59] So when I go into a company, everyone engages equally,
[00:12:02] but outside of the company bringing us in,
[00:12:05] I would say we see more women.
[00:12:07] I look at the demographics of our podcast, for example,
[00:12:09] I see more women.
[00:12:11] So that, I see kind of a slightly more interest
[00:12:14] in proactivity from women on that side,
[00:12:16] even though I think this is important for everybody.
[00:12:19] In terms of sort of moments that matter,
[00:12:21] I think particularly for women,
[00:12:24] you mentioned kind of childcare, for example,
[00:12:26] there's a definite pivot point for women
[00:12:29] where they have slightly different pressures in their career,
[00:12:31] which lead them to reconsider what they want from work.
[00:12:34] I think there seems to be more of those pivotal moments.
[00:12:38] So we definitely see, I'm interested in career change,
[00:12:41] I don't know how to do it.
[00:12:42] I want to do something different,
[00:12:44] but I have some constraints on me now
[00:12:46] because I've got childcare.
[00:12:47] So it does seem to be that kind of point.
[00:12:50] I think it's interesting when people find squiggly.
[00:12:53] People will often come to me at an event
[00:12:55] and they'll be like, oh, you really helped me when?
[00:12:58] And so there are sort of moments at a time
[00:12:59] when people get made redundant,
[00:13:01] when people have a significant career change,
[00:13:03] where people have made a bad move
[00:13:05] and they think, oh, you really helped me when,
[00:13:08] it seems to be, that seems to be where a lot of people find it.
[00:13:10] - Yeah, we get similar.
[00:13:11] It's sometimes when people are reaching
[00:13:13] a milestone birthday, like 40 or 50,
[00:13:17] they go, oh, I need to have a little bit of a look
[00:13:19] at where I'm at in my career.
[00:13:21] But no, I find as well,
[00:13:24] I've seen in some cases with women,
[00:13:27] they are able to pivot better than men
[00:13:30] because they've had to,
[00:13:32] oh, well, actually I went on maternity leave four years ago
[00:13:35] and I came back into a different role.
[00:13:36] I didn't think I loved marketing,
[00:13:39] but actually the role that was available was in marketing.
[00:13:41] It's been brilliant.
[00:13:42] And I've learned all these new skills,
[00:13:44] which I think is a great benefit for people
[00:13:48] and particularly women when that happens.
[00:13:50] I do see on the other side,
[00:13:51] sometimes women get disgruntled when they come back
[00:13:53] and they're like,
[00:13:54] they probably are still in that ladder-like mindset of like,
[00:13:59] oh, I've gone back down the ladder now.
[00:14:01] I used to often hear that from having two children.
[00:14:05] I was here, my peer has gone two wrongs above me, right?
[00:14:09] - Well, that was the third area I was gonna say.
[00:14:11] So I see that sort of productivity difference there.
[00:14:14] I definitely see the moments that matter.
[00:14:16] There are some different moments that matter.
[00:14:17] And the third is the skills that people,
[00:14:21] there are five skills that we think are important
[00:14:23] for people succeeding in a squiggly career.
[00:14:25] One of them is confidence.
[00:14:26] And I see some specific confidence gremlins
[00:14:30] resonate more with women.
[00:14:31] So the imposter one, I see a lot,
[00:14:34] which is kind of a fear of being found out
[00:14:36] is how we frame it.
[00:14:37] Comparison resonates a lot and also likability.
[00:14:42] Those three, when I kind of look across different audiences
[00:14:45] for women, those gremlins are bigger.
[00:14:47] - Yeah, I completely agree.
[00:14:49] We'll touch on some of those gremlins as well.
[00:14:51] You know, I was thinking about my own experience as well.
[00:14:54] And Harrison who's here today was asking me
[00:14:59] about some of the things that have happened in my career
[00:15:02] that might resonate with people on social media.
[00:15:04] And I actually did suffer a burnout twice in my career.
[00:15:07] And one time was because of this focus on the career ladder,
[00:15:10] you know, like really pushing, working crazy hours,
[00:15:13] doing work that really I didn't really love,
[00:15:16] but I was in the kind of machine almost,
[00:15:19] if you like that kind of thing.
[00:15:21] - I saw that post on social media.
[00:15:22] I thought it was brilliant.
[00:15:23] - Yeah, and I thought it was important to share that,
[00:15:25] but it kind of links to what you guys do
[00:15:28] and talk about a lot in Squeakly Career
[00:15:30] is that this kind of concept of the ladder
[00:15:33] can be quite stressful, right?
[00:15:35] And the question I put down here is, you know,
[00:15:38] do you think that some people come to Squeakly?
[00:15:42] And I think you kind of mentioned it there
[00:15:43] at moments where they're burnt out as well.
[00:15:47] - Yeah, I think they come because they're lost.
[00:15:50] I think they come because what they're doing
[00:15:52] doesn't feel right to them anymore.
[00:15:54] But I mean, I also have people that come to Squeakly
[00:15:57] because they're like really ambitious.
[00:15:59] Like they're not lost.
[00:16:00] They're like, they're hungry.
[00:16:01] But what they've realized is that the traditional route
[00:16:04] to success isn't gonna do it for them.
[00:16:07] So they are definitely more in,
[00:16:08] I am excited about my career.
[00:16:10] I love what I do.
[00:16:11] I just wanna do more.
[00:16:12] And I know I need to think a bit more creatively
[00:16:14] about how to do that because I don't want to wait
[00:16:17] to get promoted.
[00:16:18] I want to do more now.
[00:16:19] So I think it's, for us, for Squeakly,
[00:16:22] we want Squeakly to be kind of as universal
[00:16:23] as possible for people.
[00:16:25] But there are definitely different motivations.
[00:16:28] - Oh, I mean, your stuff, it applies.
[00:16:31] And so, I mean, we'll talk about the five skills.
[00:16:34] They're just so relevant for people
[00:16:35] in all different phases of their career.
[00:16:39] You just got me thinking there as well
[00:16:40] as you were talking about careers.
[00:16:42] It's my partner says to me,
[00:16:45] I said I was still ambitious for my career.
[00:16:47] I stepped out of one job.
[00:16:48] And he said to me, you shouldn't be ambitious
[00:16:51] for your career.
[00:16:52] You should be ambitious for your life,
[00:16:53] which is a really interesting.
[00:16:55] Oh, actually, you know my partner, of course,
[00:16:56] 'cause you've done some work with them.
[00:16:58] I just thought of that.
[00:17:01] But yeah, it's interesting
[00:17:02] because I think Squeakly Careers is a little bit
[00:17:05] about working on your values,
[00:17:07] thinking about what kind of a life do you want?
[00:17:10] It's not necessarily about this ladder,
[00:17:13] this career ladder.
[00:17:14] - I always think it's really important.
[00:17:15] Sometimes I talk to people about what I do.
[00:17:17] And obviously I'm very passionate like you.
[00:17:18] I'm very passionate about what I do.
[00:17:19] And they'll go--
[00:17:20] - I think you're more passionate than me.
[00:17:21] - I mean, I'm upset.
[00:17:23] But they'll say to me, oh, Helen, it's only work.
[00:17:25] And I kind of get the point that they're making,
[00:17:29] but then I do think your work.
[00:17:32] So in your life, the thing that you do most
[00:17:35] with your entire hours of your life is sleep.
[00:17:36] So I can't help anyone with that.
[00:17:37] But the thing that you do next
[00:17:38] with the most hours of your life is work.
[00:17:41] And so I think work is really important.
[00:17:43] I think it's important to your identity.
[00:17:45] I think if you are happy at work,
[00:17:47] that has ripples on people
[00:17:49] that you spend time with outside of work.
[00:17:51] And so I think work is, I think it matters.
[00:17:55] - So I'm with you.
[00:17:56] That's why I started a podcast three years ago.
[00:17:58] It's like when work's not good, life's not good.
[00:18:02] We had Margaret Heffernan on the podcast.
[00:18:04] - I love Margaret.
[00:18:04] - I love her.
[00:18:05] And she made a great point.
[00:18:07] I said to her, when work's not good, life's not good.
[00:18:09] And she said to me, you know what, Colin?
[00:18:11] It's not just life's not good for you.
[00:18:12] It's for all the people around you.
[00:18:14] It's for your wife, your husband, your kids.
[00:18:17] So it is very important.
[00:18:20] That's why I think you've got the passion for it.
[00:18:23] I have the passion for it.
[00:18:24] And that's why I wanted to get you on
[00:18:25] because I think so many people
[00:18:27] are still a little bit stuck at times.
[00:18:30] And sometimes they have the energy.
[00:18:32] They wanna do something to fulfill themselves more.
[00:18:35] Let's talk about the skills.
[00:18:37] Because the five core skills, which I love,
[00:18:39] values, strengths, confidence, community, possibilities.
[00:18:44] So good.
[00:18:45] Let's just, we'll start, we won't go through all of them,
[00:18:47] but let's start with, I love,
[00:18:49] I kind of flipped them around 'cause I like skill,
[00:18:52] I've put values as skill one.
[00:18:54] I really like-
[00:18:55] - Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you've done that.
[00:18:57] Okay, secret debate.
[00:18:58] I'm gonna let you into a little squiggly secret here.
[00:19:02] Okay, so-
[00:19:03] - He's writing it down.
[00:19:04] - In the book, in the book, strengths comes first.
[00:19:08] - Yes, it does, yes.
[00:19:10] - This was a big debate between me and my business partner
[00:19:13] because I believe values should come first.
[00:19:17] It's so interesting that you've done that.
[00:19:18] - So I think the same, to be honest.
[00:19:20] Annette, hello Annette, who does the show.
[00:19:22] We had similar discussions in some of the content
[00:19:25] we were putting together about,
[00:19:27] should self-awareness come first?
[00:19:30] And actually, we both landed, yes, it should come first.
[00:19:34] And when I read through your book, I was like,
[00:19:36] oh, I feel like values to me in my brain is the place to start.
[00:19:39] - So I'll tell you the rationale,
[00:19:40] and I'll tell you the naughty thing that I do together.
[00:19:43] So my business partner's rationale, which I do buy,
[00:19:45] is that strengths is a little bit easier,
[00:19:48] perhaps to get started with.
[00:19:49] Whereas, you know, values, you do have to,
[00:19:51] you're diving quite deep if you want that to be meaningful.
[00:19:53] So she's like, let's ease people in,
[00:19:55] we'll start with strengths.
[00:19:56] But my little naughty thing that I do
[00:19:58] is every company that I go into,
[00:20:00] I start with values, every company.
[00:20:03] - Oh my God, and I flipped.
[00:20:04] She actually has my questions everywhere,
[00:20:06] because I had to send them to Helen,
[00:20:08] 'cause my iPad, I forgot it.
[00:20:10] So yeah, I flipped it, I was like--
[00:20:11] - I hope my business partner doesn't hear this,
[00:20:13] should be so crossed on me.
[00:20:13] - Yes, don't let her hear it.
[00:20:14] But what I think is great with the values big,
[00:20:17] you know, the book stresses the importance
[00:20:18] of understanding your core values,
[00:20:21] aligning your career choices with them.
[00:20:23] And I love, there's a quote in the book,
[00:20:25] reflection helps you align your career path
[00:20:28] with what truly matters to you.
[00:20:30] Now, I had a lady on the show,
[00:20:32] and we talked a lot about values, called Aisha Basel.
[00:20:35] I think I mentioned to her separately, she's brilliant.
[00:20:38] And I'll ask you a question, linked to values,
[00:20:41] who's your hero and why?
[00:20:44] - Oh, my nan.
[00:20:45] - And why would that be?
[00:20:47] - Because she is, she has been through some tough things,
[00:20:52] everything from, I don't know, being evacuated in a war
[00:20:56] to my father dying, so I think when I was 11,
[00:21:00] so losing her son, and then she's been on her own
[00:21:03] for a very long time, and she is just resilient,
[00:21:07] she's positive, and she is relevant.
[00:21:10] So I can have a conversation with my 96 year old nan
[00:21:14] about anything, and she's no judgment, she's amazing.
[00:21:17] - So resilient, positive, I mean, and that's you.
[00:21:21] So the reason that Aisha said you ask people that question
[00:21:24] is you get a really clear sense of their values very quickly,
[00:21:27] as opposed to asking them, you know, write these down,
[00:21:31] et cetera, et cetera.
[00:21:32] But I always like you start with the values,
[00:21:34] because even when I interview people,
[00:21:37] I'm interviewing nannies at the moment,
[00:21:39] our lovely nanny is pregnant.
[00:21:41] And some of the nannies I think are like, what the hell?
[00:21:44] I asked a nanny on Zoom yesterday, I said,
[00:21:47] so who's your hero?
[00:21:47] She was like, and I said, and why?
[00:21:49] Because I do think it gives you a good sense
[00:21:51] of someone's values.
[00:21:52] So I love that you guys had values in here,
[00:21:55] and good, and nann is still alive.
[00:21:58] - She is, she's amazing.
[00:21:59] Thank you for letting me give Joyce a little shout out.
[00:22:01] - Joyce, I hope she'll listen in now.
[00:22:03] Now, and then you've got, I then went through it,
[00:22:06] identifying my strengths next.
[00:22:08] - Okay, yeah.
[00:22:09] - And I loved, what I loved in it was,
[00:22:11] and I've got a little picture of it here,
[00:22:12] I took a picture of it.
[00:22:15] You have this career graph, which I loved.
[00:22:18] I was on that yesterday, looking at it on your website.
[00:22:22] And it's great because it kind of gives you this,
[00:22:26] you reflect on your career, and step one is,
[00:22:30] you plot your career highs and lows,
[00:22:32] starting at the beginning of your career up to today.
[00:22:36] And then step two is, what do your career highs have
[00:22:39] in common, and what can I learn from my career lows?
[00:22:42] Which I thought, it's just such a clever way
[00:22:44] to think about your strengths.
[00:22:46] - I love doing this exercise.
[00:22:47] This isn't even better if you do it with somebody else.
[00:22:51] So I could sit down with you for 20 minutes.
[00:22:53] You would talk about your highs and lows,
[00:22:55] and you would just reflect.
[00:22:56] And I think people just quite like reflecting
[00:22:59] on their career, like going through it.
[00:23:00] And as I'm listening to you,
[00:23:02] all I'm doing is writing down the words that you're saying.
[00:23:05] And the words that you say, also the way that you say them,
[00:23:07] 'cause sometimes you'll go, "Oh, I hated that job."
[00:23:10] And you're, "Oh, your head will go here."
[00:23:12] And sometimes you'll be like, "Oh, I loved it."
[00:23:13] And you'll lean in.
[00:23:14] So I kind of put like little marks when people,
[00:23:16] based on how they're doing it.
[00:23:18] And I'm just collecting clues,
[00:23:19] the words you say more than once, the way that you say them.
[00:23:22] And after 20 minutes, you're like, "And now I'm here."
[00:23:24] I go, "Well, here's what I heard."
[00:23:26] And it's not my job to say these are your values,
[00:23:28] 'cause that's your choice.
[00:23:29] But I have subtly collected some data for your development
[00:23:33] based on you sharing your story.
[00:23:35] And that might be, you said the word connection five times.
[00:23:40] And most of the time people don't know
[00:23:41] because you've been in your story.
[00:23:44] And I have been listening.
[00:23:45] It's actually also a very good way of practicing listening.
[00:23:48] So it kind of works for both people.
[00:23:50] - I have to say, I love it.
[00:23:53] I think it's a really smart way of doing it.
[00:23:55] And I reflected myself on this yesterday.
[00:23:59] And I thought, okay, when were the times that I,
[00:24:02] when was the lows?
[00:24:03] I worked with one particular person who,
[00:24:06] her boss said to me, "Why don't you like working with her?"
[00:24:09] And I said, "Look, she stifles my entrepreneurial spirit."
[00:24:13] And I wrote that down yesterday.
[00:24:15] I thought, "Okay, I don't enjoy working for people
[00:24:18] who are micromanagers because I'm quite entrepreneurial."
[00:24:22] And that was one of the skills that was really useful
[00:24:24] in big organizations.
[00:24:25] They liked that I was entrepreneurial.
[00:24:26] I'd go, "Okay, let's see what's a different way
[00:24:29] we could do this.
[00:24:30] What's Apple doing?"
[00:24:31] Oh, they'd be like, "We're a bank."
[00:24:32] I don't care.
[00:24:33] There's things we can learn.
[00:24:35] But if I work for someone who's really like process,
[00:24:39] like robot, like doesn't work for me.
[00:24:42] And I think this is a great exercise for people
[00:24:43] because sometimes it mightn't be the job.
[00:24:46] It might be the person you're working for.
[00:24:48] There's so many things that drive the highs and lows.
[00:24:52] - It's quite cathartic.
[00:24:54] 'Cause you're like, "Oh, that job was awful."
[00:24:56] - Totally. - I've done that.
[00:24:57] - But Helen, I think what happens as well is people in their,
[00:25:00] I particularly see people in their late 30s, early 40s,
[00:25:04] they are really all about who they're gonna work for.
[00:25:06] I've heard it from so many people in big banks,
[00:25:09] in big organizations.
[00:25:10] They say to me like, "I'm done.
[00:25:12] I now, I decide, I meet the person.
[00:25:16] I need to see that I can enjoy working with them."
[00:25:19] It's interesting.
[00:25:20] You don't see that in the 20s and maybe 30s,
[00:25:22] but certainly late 30s, 40s, I get that.
[00:25:26] I'm going off little data points I pick up myself,
[00:25:29] but people get very particular about who they work for.
[00:25:31] - They do though.
[00:25:32] I would fly a little flag and say,
[00:25:34] just be a bit aware of like the cult of a manager.
[00:25:37] You know, 'cause I have definitely known people,
[00:25:39] my business partner that's actually,
[00:25:40] she moved to a company based on the manager,
[00:25:41] only to find out that within like the first month,
[00:25:43] the manager moved on.
[00:25:44] - Oh God, yeah, that's not good.
[00:25:46] Yeah, so I do think that whilst it is a really important
[00:25:50] consideration, I would recommend that people
[00:25:53] try to get a sense of the culture of the company,
[00:25:55] a bit of exposure to the team,
[00:25:56] so that it's not a decision based on one person.
[00:25:58] - Totally, no, I'm with you on that.
[00:26:00] I'm with you on that, but the exercise is so good.
[00:26:03] It's great to kind of go, okay, look,
[00:26:05] I was lit up when I did this type of work
[00:26:08] or where I was given the reign to come up with a new way
[00:26:12] of working or whatever it is.
[00:26:13] Like that for me is great.
[00:26:15] You never, I know for me, you don't give me a job
[00:26:17] where they say, the boss says,
[00:26:19] just keep it running as it is exactly,
[00:26:21] don't change a thing, you know.
[00:26:23] I like, I'm running out the door ASAP.
[00:26:26] Now you touched a minute ago on these confidence gremlins,
[00:26:29] which is skill three, which is managing self-doubt.
[00:26:33] Now, when I read the book again,
[00:26:35] I thought Sarah was really kind with the way she shared
[00:26:39] in the book, you know, her fear of conflict as well,
[00:26:42] which was really interesting.
[00:26:44] She, if I remember correctly, she was in these meetings
[00:26:48] where she felt there was a lot of conflict happening
[00:26:50] and she was walked out with one of her colleagues
[00:26:53] and she was ranting to him about it.
[00:26:57] And she said, oh, if conflict was out of 10, that was eight.
[00:27:01] And he was like, well, it was like a two.
[00:27:03] - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:04] - And it was interesting because, you know,
[00:27:05] I thought it was really good the way she shared it.
[00:27:07] And in the book, I love the way you've got
[00:27:10] these little exercises people can do
[00:27:12] to think about what would,
[00:27:14] what are some of the confidence gremlins they might have?
[00:27:17] - Yeah.
[00:27:18] - But great, I mean, you said earlier,
[00:27:20] a lot of women have this confidence gremlins.
[00:27:23] - I think the thing with confidence gremlins,
[00:27:24] everybody has them.
[00:27:25] That what we do see is that, you know,
[00:27:27] different people have different gremlins.
[00:27:30] And it has been unintentionally the skill
[00:27:34] that we have ended up sort of spending the most time on.
[00:27:37] So we wrote about it in this weekly query.
[00:27:40] We wrote about it in "You Coach You".
[00:27:41] We then wrote another book called
[00:27:43] "How to Know and Cage Your Confidence Gremlins".
[00:27:45] And the reason is I think it is the biggest thing
[00:27:48] that holds people back.
[00:27:50] And I've come to the conclusion really
[00:27:52] that with all the stuff that we do,
[00:27:54] confidence is the difference between knowing and doing.
[00:27:56] So people can know what their values are
[00:27:58] and they can know what strengths they want to stand out.
[00:28:00] But whether they actually take any action
[00:28:03] is very often as a result of,
[00:28:05] is there a gremlin getting in my way?
[00:28:07] Am I worried that if I do have that conversation with you,
[00:28:10] you might not like me?
[00:28:11] Or am I worried that if I take that risk, I might fail?
[00:28:14] Or am I worried that I'm too old to start again
[00:28:16] in a different career?
[00:28:18] And these gremlins that are these voices in our heads,
[00:28:22] these sort of negative narratives
[00:28:24] that are really critics massively in control
[00:28:27] holds so many people back.
[00:28:28] And it doesn't matter how senior they are.
[00:28:30] It doesn't matter what country they're in.
[00:28:31] Like we see gremlins everywhere.
[00:28:33] And we just need to start talking about them
[00:28:36] so they're in the spotlight and less in control.
[00:28:39] - I loved it and I thought you did that very smart
[00:28:41] in the book, how you can help people with it.
[00:28:44] I also loved, you just reminded me,
[00:28:45] at the start of the book, you said,
[00:28:47] no one cares about your career as much as you do.
[00:28:50] Which I think kind of links to the confidence gremlins
[00:28:52] going, hey, you know what?
[00:28:54] You might be 50, you mightn't have done
[00:28:56] that type of work before, but who cares?
[00:28:57] Go try it.
[00:28:59] You know, it's great that you're giving people
[00:29:02] that confidence to go and try something new.
[00:29:05] - I think that is probably the most common bit of feedback
[00:29:08] I've generally had about squiggly career
[00:29:10] is that it gives people permission.
[00:29:13] It's given them like a language to talk about their career.
[00:29:17] People have even said they'll take the book
[00:29:19] and say, this is my career.
[00:29:20] You know, it sort of justifies.
[00:29:21] I don't want to be a ladder-like person.
[00:29:23] I want to be somebody who is individual.
[00:29:26] And this concept of the squiggly career
[00:29:28] kind of gives me a bit of permission too.
[00:29:29] And I really like that squiggly career just in of itself
[00:29:33] is giving people a little bit more confidence.
[00:29:35] You've got to, we need to work with the gremlins too.
[00:29:37] But if it's a little bit of a boost to someone's belief
[00:29:41] that this validates something they want to do
[00:29:43] that they haven't felt comfortable talking about,
[00:29:44] like I'm very happy that squiggly can do that for them.
[00:29:47] - I think you guys have done a great job
[00:29:48] because here in the UK, I mean, I don't know anyone
[00:29:51] that doesn't know of squiggly careers.
[00:29:53] And I do think- - I think there'll be a few,
[00:29:54] but we'll get there, we'll get there.
[00:29:55] - People love it because I agree with you.
[00:29:57] I think it gives people a bit of a, they stand taller
[00:30:00] and they go, you know what?
[00:30:02] I could do this too, you know?
[00:30:03] - Yes, yeah.
[00:30:04] - I don't need to be climbing up some ladder
[00:30:06] that I really, it's not going to be for me.
[00:30:09] - Yeah.
[00:30:10] - The other skills you've got in there are,
[00:30:12] and we'll reference the book on the show notes, et cetera,
[00:30:16] but you've got building supportive networks and communities.
[00:30:20] I really love that.
[00:30:21] I love that you say to the book,
[00:30:22] networking is about building relationships,
[00:30:25] not just connections.
[00:30:27] I love that because a lot of people,
[00:30:29] they just want the connection, but-
[00:30:31] - Well, I think, I don't know they want them.
[00:30:33] They just think that that's what success looks like.
[00:30:34] The more people I know, the better my network.
[00:30:38] - Yes.
[00:30:38] - Whereas we have this idea
[00:30:39] that really it's about people helping people,
[00:30:41] that it's the thing that's going to build
[00:30:43] the best relationships is where you help people.
[00:30:46] And actually that idea of people helping people
[00:30:49] is quite useful psychologically.
[00:30:50] Because even if you have someone who goes,
[00:30:51] I hate networking, I hate it, I'm out.
[00:30:54] People do like helping people,
[00:30:55] like it's a human trait to want to help people.
[00:30:57] And it actually makes you feel good when you do it.
[00:31:00] But then Adam Grant is amazing research on this.
[00:31:03] What he shows is that give us get more back.
[00:31:06] So if you start with how can I be helpful,
[00:31:09] sort of an easier place for your brain
[00:31:10] to start building relationship in,
[00:31:12] and then the payoff is that that results in reciprocity.
[00:31:16] So people want to help you over time anyway.
[00:31:19] - I completely agree.
[00:31:20] I mean, I get a dopamine hit out of helping people.
[00:31:23] - Me too.
[00:31:25] - My trainer at the gym always says to me,
[00:31:27] he goes like, I don't understand why you just like,
[00:31:30] if someone, if he was to say to me,
[00:31:31] I'm going to take my girlfriend out to a restaurant,
[00:31:33] by the end of the session,
[00:31:34] I've given him three places to go
[00:31:36] and do not go to that place and blah, blah, blah.
[00:31:38] And I don't know what it's like, but I get a real,
[00:31:40] and then I love when he tells me, I took her here.
[00:31:43] So I agree with what you said.
[00:31:45] - It feels good, you feel useful, you're sharing.
[00:31:48] And I think, oh gosh, imagine companies
[00:31:52] where it's not based on people competing with people,
[00:31:54] which is what the ladder leads to,
[00:31:55] is people helping people.
[00:31:57] Like it's just better.
[00:31:59] - It's so much better.
[00:32:00] And then the final skill you've got
[00:32:02] is exploring future possibilities.
[00:32:04] And I love that, the book encourages readers
[00:32:07] to keep an open mind about future opportunities
[00:32:11] and be proactive.
[00:32:12] And I love the whole thing that like sideways,
[00:32:15] moves can lead to the most unexpected
[00:32:18] and fulfilling opportunities.
[00:32:19] That is so true.
[00:32:21] - Yeah.
[00:32:22] And there are more, there are just more sideways moves.
[00:32:24] I think if up is the only way you start to stall,
[00:32:29] because they're just, you end up waiting for things
[00:32:31] and waiting for people to move on.
[00:32:33] But if you look sideways,
[00:32:34] or you look at project opportunities,
[00:32:36] or even you think, well, what if I went back
[00:32:38] to something I did before?
[00:32:39] 'Cause maybe I'm a different person now.
[00:32:42] Like I could go back to companies I've worked in before.
[00:32:44] I could go back to functions I've worked in before.
[00:32:47] But when you look at careers like ladders,
[00:32:48] going back is bad.
[00:32:50] When you look at careers like Squiggly,
[00:32:51] going back is just a different direction you could develop it.
[00:32:54] It's not, we kind of want to be neutral
[00:32:56] about like, where are you going to learn the most?
[00:32:58] Where are you going to be able to stretch your strengths
[00:33:00] in interesting ways?
[00:33:00] Like whether it's up, back, sideways, something different.
[00:33:04] That's almost neutral, just consider the possibility.
[00:33:08] - Absolutely, and I know McKinsey had put out something
[00:33:11] a few months ago on the fact that actually
[00:33:14] sometimes these sideways moves can give you even more.
[00:33:18] I actually thought of you, I was like, oh my gosh,
[00:33:20] that's like so aligned with Squiggly, right?
[00:33:23] You know, in that actually,
[00:33:25] it's sometimes not about a pay rise, et cetera.
[00:33:29] You talk to people that have done a sideways move,
[00:33:31] they get even more out of it.
[00:33:32] - Yes, well, they get more opportunity.
[00:33:33] And also the research shows that it can lead to more pay.
[00:33:36] So there's this assumption that, well,
[00:33:38] if I want to be paid more than I need to get promoted,
[00:33:41] therefore that's the only possibility I'll consider.
[00:33:43] But if you're waiting for a long time,
[00:33:44] you might be better to stretch your sense in a sideways move
[00:33:48] and build better relationships in a different area.
[00:33:50] And that increases sort of your career capital.
[00:33:52] And it's shown that those people
[00:33:54] then get paid more over time.
[00:33:56] So we just need to think slightly differently about,
[00:33:59] I guess, what we have been told
[00:34:00] that success sort of looks like.
[00:34:02] - I completely agree.
[00:34:03] And, you know, they're the five, which I absolutely love.
[00:34:06] And just, I was thinking about linking to that skill five,
[00:34:10] which is explore future opportunities,
[00:34:11] because your early career was in marketing.
[00:34:14] - Yeah.
[00:34:15] - And, you know, how do you think that skill in marketing
[00:34:18] has helped you pivot into this kind of career space
[00:34:22] that you're in now?
[00:34:24] - Yeah, it's an interesting question.
[00:34:26] I think, I guess I want to help as many people as possible
[00:34:31] succeed in squiggly careers.
[00:34:33] And I think marketing is a skill
[00:34:36] that helps you create connection,
[00:34:39] get messages out in the world,
[00:34:40] build a brand that resonates.
[00:34:42] And so all the things that I learned in marketing
[00:34:45] have helped me to scale and grow my business, definitely.
[00:34:48] And, you know, I love marketing.
[00:34:50] I still get to do lots of marketing now.
[00:34:51] I get to think about how do we create squiggly career
[00:34:54] campaigns and how do we build communities
[00:34:57] on different platforms?
[00:34:58] And, you know, all of our marketing skills
[00:35:00] are brought into what I do today.
[00:35:03] I don't have the job of like the title of marketing anymore,
[00:35:06] but the talent is very much present in the work that I do.
[00:35:10] - I mean, you guys kill it because Annette and I
[00:35:13] and Phoebe and our little small team,
[00:35:15] we always look at you guys as the kind of, wow,
[00:35:19] those guys have built a brilliant brand,
[00:35:22] marketed it so well.
[00:35:24] You know, honestly, I can see your skills.
[00:35:28] - And we've got two of us as well.
[00:35:29] I mean, you've got two, we both worked in marketing.
[00:35:31] - Oh, wow, so Sarah worked in marketing as well.
[00:35:33] - Yeah, we both worked in marketing
[00:35:35] in slightly different kind of parts of marketing.
[00:35:37] So I did more insight, innovation.
[00:35:41] Sarah did more sort of brand marketing.
[00:35:43] So tone of always.
[00:35:44] So we kind of have that passion and past experience
[00:35:49] that we get to, you know, we get to play with.
[00:35:51] It's brilliant.
[00:35:52] - I tell you, the stuff is,
[00:35:54] if anyone listening has not gone on amazing air
[00:35:58] for or seen the resources that you guys give a lot
[00:36:00] of resources for free.
[00:36:01] - Well, it's back to democratizing development.
[00:36:03] - Yeah, it's brilliant.
[00:36:04] - And also to be honest, we have so many ideas
[00:36:07] that we can't, it's just giving things away
[00:36:10] that are useful, or useful is one of our values.
[00:36:12] It just works for us.
[00:36:14] And I think what we have realized
[00:36:15] is helping back to people helping people,
[00:36:19] the more people we help with squiggly careers.
[00:36:21] So the more useful resources we create for people,
[00:36:25] the more communities and campaigns we create,
[00:36:27] the more people advocate for squiggly.
[00:36:30] So, you know, that's not why we do it,
[00:36:31] but that is the result of us putting work out
[00:36:34] into the world is that people identify with it
[00:36:36] and they want it to succeed.
[00:36:38] So we just have ideas all the time.
[00:36:41] I just can't, I can't stop creating.
[00:36:43] - It's just like in my DNA to do it.
[00:36:46] - It's such a good skill set to have, you know.
[00:36:49] And the other thing I was thinking about
[00:36:50] is because we talked about you go into companies as well.
[00:36:53] And when I first saw this, I mean,
[00:36:57] it might've been two, three years ago,
[00:36:59] I discovered that you guys were going into companies.
[00:37:01] I was like, what?
[00:37:02] I'm surprised companies are bringing them in
[00:37:04] to advertise squiggly careers
[00:37:06] because won't they lose their best people or,
[00:37:09] and then I discovered a bit more,
[00:37:11] but actually tell us why do companies
[00:37:14] bring you in now more and more
[00:37:16] to share squiggly careers with all their people?
[00:37:20] - Well, what our aim is to help people squiggle and stay.
[00:37:23] That's the aim.
[00:37:25] So we want people to own their squiggly career
[00:37:29] and we want companies to create an environment
[00:37:32] where they can squiggle and stay.
[00:37:33] So they don't get stuck in a silo.
[00:37:35] We want them to have possibilities in the company.
[00:37:38] So when we work with a company,
[00:37:39] we work across sort of three different areas.
[00:37:40] So the first is,
[00:37:41] does the individual have the skills to succeed
[00:37:43] in their squiggly career?
[00:37:44] Which is what we talked about.
[00:37:46] Do they know those things?
[00:37:47] The second is, do they have the support
[00:37:50] to make that possible?
[00:37:51] That is largely in the form of a conversation
[00:37:53] they might have with a manager.
[00:37:55] So can a manager create squiggly career conversations,
[00:37:59] learning cultures in a team?
[00:38:01] Do they have frequent feedback
[00:38:02] that helps people grow and develop?
[00:38:04] Like there's lots of ways in which managers support
[00:38:06] and enable people squiggly careers.
[00:38:08] And then the third area is a structure.
[00:38:10] Do we have structures where people can squiggle and stay?
[00:38:13] Or do we just lose people
[00:38:15] 'cause they're stuck in a silo?
[00:38:16] And so the companies that most successfully adopt
[00:38:19] squiggly careers work on skills, support and structures.
[00:38:23] They're working across those.
[00:38:24] And it isn't, not every company we work with
[00:38:26] is able to do that yet.
[00:38:28] They might start with skills
[00:38:29] and they're building a bit of momentum
[00:38:30] and we'll get to the next bit.
[00:38:32] But that really is where we make the biggest difference.
[00:38:34] - I think it's great because I think a lot of companies
[00:38:37] are realizing that people are going to leave
[00:38:41] if they don't see opportunities in different areas
[00:38:45] or something that's gonna play more to their talents.
[00:38:50] I think it's really smart of companies to do it.
[00:38:53] - Well, we did some kind of research around this,
[00:38:55] around squiggle and stay.
[00:38:56] And there were sort of three reasons
[00:38:59] why people find it easier to leave
[00:39:01] and develop their career outside of their company
[00:39:03] than stay and do it inside the company.
[00:39:06] And then the three reasons are one, a lack of awareness.
[00:39:08] So I can't see what I can be.
[00:39:10] I know I wanna develop in the company,
[00:39:11] but I can't see outside of marketing.
[00:39:13] I don't know what I can do.
[00:39:14] But if I look on LinkedIn, there's lots of jobs there.
[00:39:17] I'll just apply for that.
[00:39:18] So the first is you've got to give people greater awareness
[00:39:21] of the opportunities in an organization
[00:39:23] where their talents could take them to a job,
[00:39:25] not just their titles.
[00:39:27] And the second is access.
[00:39:29] So we make it very hard for people to get to new jobs.
[00:39:32] So you've got to be here for two and a half years.
[00:39:35] You've got to go through 10 interviews.
[00:39:36] You've got to have this rating.
[00:39:38] And then you go, well, I'll just apply for that job.
[00:39:40] I don't have to do any of those things.
[00:39:41] I know that I could do it and I'll go there.
[00:39:44] So we need to make it easier.
[00:39:45] We kind of say like try before you apply.
[00:39:47] How can you spend a week working in that team
[00:39:52] or get some exposure on a project,
[00:39:53] like help people to try before they apply
[00:39:55] and make access easier?
[00:39:56] And then the third reason is advocacy.
[00:39:59] So even if I can see what I can be
[00:40:01] and I've sort of tried it and I know I want to apply,
[00:40:04] I might need somebody to speak up for me and say,
[00:40:07] well, I know Helen's not worked in procurement,
[00:40:10] but I have seen that she's really commercial.
[00:40:12] I've seen that with her work in marketing
[00:40:14] and I think we should give her a chance
[00:40:15] or give her the opportunity.
[00:40:17] If you can crack awareness, access and advocacy,
[00:40:20] people will stay.
[00:40:21] But most people aren't trying to sort of cracking
[00:40:24] those things and so people just,
[00:40:25] it's just easy for me to look somewhere else and leave.
[00:40:28] - And that's really sad
[00:40:29] 'cause I think then organizations do lose
[00:40:31] some amazing people. - Absolutely.
[00:40:32] - And I saw some great stats on your website,
[00:40:34] like people starting work today
[00:40:36] will have twice as many jobs over their careers
[00:40:39] compared to 15 years ago.
[00:40:41] And I also saw nearly 50% of people say
[00:40:45] they would leave an organization
[00:40:47] where they can't progress in some way.
[00:40:50] - Yeah, I think people want to progress.
[00:40:53] I think we did this really fun exercise
[00:40:55] in some of our sessions
[00:40:57] where we call that progression bingo.
[00:40:59] And so obviously when you're looking at careers
[00:41:02] like a ladder, the only way you progress is getting promoted.
[00:41:04] Our kind of premises and squiggly careers,
[00:41:07] there's lots of ways you can progress.
[00:41:08] So we get everyone to basically fill out the bingo card
[00:41:10] while all the ways in which you can progress
[00:41:12] and they'll talk about, oh, I could shadow someone,
[00:41:16] I could go on a succumbent,
[00:41:17] I could work on a project, loads of ways.
[00:41:19] And then, and obviously promotion is one of those ways.
[00:41:22] And then we ask people, this is a bit that I really love,
[00:41:24] what do you want to do most now?
[00:41:26] And hardly anyone ever says promotion.
[00:41:29] They go, actually, I'd quite like to do a squiggly succumbent.
[00:41:31] I'd quite like to go spend nine months in a different role
[00:41:33] and just see what it's like,
[00:41:34] or I'd like to go just do 50/50.
[00:41:37] I'd like to do a bit of a job share.
[00:41:38] I'd like to do 50% of my time there.
[00:41:40] And it's like, well, let's get a bit more creative
[00:41:42] with what career development can look like.
[00:41:44] And people want to progress.
[00:41:47] They've only been given promotion as the way of doing it.
[00:41:51] - I completely agree.
[00:41:52] And I used to see sometimes in big organizations,
[00:41:55] managers think they own the people in the team.
[00:41:59] And I used to say to my peers,
[00:42:00] like, we don't own these people.
[00:42:01] You know, like, Helen is really good at that.
[00:42:04] I am going to allow her to have a succumbent over there
[00:42:07] because I think that's great for the organization.
[00:42:10] But I think sometimes people get a bit territorial,
[00:42:12] even on their people.
[00:42:14] They don't want, they go, well, I invested them.
[00:42:16] I brought them in.
[00:42:18] I don't want them going off doing something that,
[00:42:20] you know, I didn't have to go and hire another person.
[00:42:22] - Yeah, I think metrics don't help this.
[00:42:24] So we have created lots of structures
[00:42:27] where the metrics that managers are measured against
[00:42:31] detract from them,
[00:42:32] letting people go and develop in different directions.
[00:42:34] 'Cause they go, well, you're such a strong performer.
[00:42:37] I need you to stay in my team
[00:42:38] because your performance determines my performance.
[00:42:40] And therefore, like, you're not going anywhere.
[00:42:43] And you get this kind of talent hoarding thing
[00:42:44] that happens. - Totally.
[00:42:45] - Whereas if we had some mobility metrics,
[00:42:48] so if there were manager metrics
[00:42:50] that were more about how many people have moved
[00:42:52] into other areas in the business from your team,
[00:42:55] how many people who have done
[00:42:56] what we call a squiggly safari,
[00:42:57] where they'll have spent time in different teams,
[00:42:59] if we had some more mobility metrics,
[00:43:02] I think there might be a greater appetite for managers
[00:43:04] to, you know, positively support some of these things.
[00:43:08] - I agree, I agree.
[00:43:09] And because sometimes some of the other metrics you have is,
[00:43:12] you know, managers get very worried
[00:43:15] if people are not staying in their team for a long time,
[00:43:17] right, like, or-- - What does it say about me?
[00:43:19] - Got high turnover in the team, whatever.
[00:43:21] So I agree.
[00:43:22] I think there's a little bit of work to do around that
[00:43:24] in big organizations.
[00:43:25] Now, we're on to our final few questions.
[00:43:28] Is there anything happening in the world of careers right now
[00:43:30] that's really exciting you?
[00:43:32] - Oh, that's a lovely, that's a lovely question.
[00:43:35] What's exciting me in the world?
[00:43:36] I think I'm just, I think one of the most exciting things,
[00:43:41] and everyone's talking about AI.
[00:43:43] So it's not AI specifically,
[00:43:44] but it's just this recognition of
[00:43:47] that skills need to be updated.
[00:43:50] Like, I feel like skills being in a boardroom conversation
[00:43:55] is, that is exciting to me, like, that people are saying,
[00:43:59] you know, what's the skill status in our organization?
[00:44:01] What new skills do we want to develop?
[00:44:03] Where have we got skill gaps?
[00:44:05] Like, I just think this is becoming
[00:44:07] a much more significant conversation.
[00:44:10] And as somebody who is very, very passionate
[00:44:12] about learning at work, like, I care about careers
[00:44:15] and I care about learning at work,
[00:44:16] I feel like they are becoming a bit more significant
[00:44:21] in very senior discussions.
[00:44:23] And I am all, I am all for that.
[00:44:25] - I'm so with you.
[00:44:26] I think the same.
[00:44:28] Skills, it's like at the table for once.
[00:44:31] - Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:32] - Similar for me, I'm very passionate about leadership
[00:44:34] and leadership is now being discussed a lot, right?
[00:44:38] You know, how can we have better leaders?
[00:44:40] How do we set them up for success, et cetera?
[00:44:43] So we're getting a lot of calls
[00:44:44] about they helped me build a program, helped me do this.
[00:44:47] I'm like, oh my God, what's happening?
[00:44:48] - Yeah, yeah, it's brilliant.
[00:44:49] - So it's exciting, right?
[00:44:50] - Yeah, it's really exciting.
[00:44:51] - Now we ask all of our guests these final three questions.
[00:44:54] What's the smallest possible change you think
[00:44:56] our listeners could do to have an impact
[00:44:58] and a better day at work tomorrow?
[00:45:00] - I think the smallest things they could do
[00:45:04] is to start reflecting on their,
[00:45:08] what we call your very small successes
[00:45:09] or what you do well at work.
[00:45:10] And the reason to do this is, you know,
[00:45:13] I said that confidence gremlins are getting
[00:45:14] in most people's way.
[00:45:15] So that's where you're kind of be telling yourself
[00:45:18] and kind of negative story about what you're doing.
[00:45:20] I think if we start to kind of just say
[00:45:22] at the end of the day, what did I do well today?
[00:45:23] What did I do well today?
[00:45:24] Not only are you likely to start spotting some strengths
[00:45:28] of like, hmm, I did that well because I used that skill.
[00:45:31] I think you also start in a small but cumulative way
[00:45:33] to build yourself belief.
[00:45:34] So what did I do well today?
[00:45:36] I think is a useful reflection.
[00:45:37] - Love that, okay, I'm gonna try that tonight.
[00:45:39] I did not do well with bringing my iPad today
[00:45:42] to this interview.
[00:45:43] So I had to borrow Helen's one.
[00:45:44] - People helping people.
[00:45:45] - People helping people.
[00:45:47] Can you share with our listeners something you learned
[00:45:49] or experienced at work that unexpectedly
[00:45:51] made your whole life better?
[00:45:53] - Oh, I mean, my business partner.
[00:45:56] I learned my business partner,
[00:45:57] but what I specifically learned
[00:45:58] and it has made my whole work and my life better
[00:46:01] is she is my opposite in every way.
[00:46:04] She is an introvert, I'm an extrovert.
[00:46:06] She is very thoughtful and reflective.
[00:46:08] I'm all about action.
[00:46:10] And the compliments of people who are your opposite
[00:46:15] I think can be amazing.
[00:46:18] Like we run a better business because of our differences.
[00:46:21] And I think it is very easy to work with people
[00:46:24] who are similar to you that you feel comfortable with.
[00:46:27] But sometimes those points of difference
[00:46:29] are what makes you better.
[00:46:30] And I'm definitely better because of her.
[00:46:32] - I love that, I love that, I hope she's listened.
[00:46:35] - To this bit, not the first bit.
[00:46:36] - Exactly, yeah, not the first bit about the values.
[00:46:39] We finish all interviews with this question.
[00:46:41] Can you recall, Helen, the best advice you received
[00:46:44] that you think makes you better at work?
[00:46:47] - I can recall the advice,
[00:46:48] but I cannot recall where it came from,
[00:46:50] but it goes through my head almost every day.
[00:46:54] And the advice is to run your own race.
[00:46:57] And I find that stops me ever needing to compete or compare.
[00:47:02] It just, it helps me go, well, you know, use your values.
[00:47:06] If you're running your own race,
[00:47:06] you're using your values to run that race.
[00:47:09] And you can define your own measures of success.
[00:47:12] And it just keeps me on my own path at my own pace,
[00:47:16] not trying to, you know, worry about other people.
[00:47:18] - I love that, I love that.
[00:47:20] Thank you so much. - Oh, thank you.
[00:47:23] - I can't believe we've had you on.
[00:47:24] And I know my lovely co-host,
[00:47:26] Annette's gonna be so excited to hear this as well.
[00:47:28] - Oh, hello, Annette.
[00:47:29] - She is a huge fan of yours.
[00:47:31] And for anyone that wants more information
[00:47:33] on quickly careers, you can go to amazingif.com,
[00:47:37] where you'll find lots of practical tools and advice.
[00:47:40] Plus, I'd love to give a little plug
[00:47:41] to the Squiggly Career Video Book.
[00:47:43] - Ah, thank you. - Which is now live
[00:47:45] on litvideobooks.com.
[00:47:48] - Yeah, they have loads, loads of,
[00:47:49] they've basically taken the concept of a book,
[00:47:51] turned it into a video and it's quick and easy.
[00:47:54] They have loads of them. - It's so good, it's so good.
[00:47:56] So it really does bring the Squiggly Career to life.
[00:47:59] And Helen and Sarah, they talk through insights
[00:48:03] and important exercises within the video as well.
[00:48:06] And finally, do follow the amazing Helen on LinkedIn.
[00:48:09] - Oh, thank you so much. - Thank you.
[00:48:10] - Really appreciate it. - Thank you so much, everybody.
[00:48:13] - Whoa, I absolutely love that chat.
[00:48:17] I hope you did too.
[00:48:18] And a huge thank you to Helen Topper.
[00:48:21] Now, do pick up a copy of Squiggly Career
[00:48:23] at all good bookshops and make sure you check out
[00:48:25] the Squiggly Career podcast too.
[00:48:27] And you might've heard it,
[00:48:30] she's got a new book on the way, Helen.
[00:48:31] So give her a follow on LinkedIn
[00:48:33] and you'll hear all about the release date for that.
[00:48:36] Now, back to our new episodes.
[00:48:38] We have a brand new listeners question episode
[00:48:40] coming next Thursday.
[00:48:42] I'll be answering all your career-related questions
[00:48:45] with Annette.
[00:48:46] So do drop them in the comments below
[00:48:48] or head on over to betteratwork.net/contactus.
[00:48:53] As always, we will also be giving you the key takeaways
[00:48:56] from my chat with Helen because we know Annette.
[00:48:59] No one does takeaways like Annette,
[00:49:01] so I know you're all gonna be delighted
[00:49:03] to hear those next Thursday.
[00:49:06] Plus, I'm super excited about our next guest,
[00:49:08] organizational psychologist, Dr. Tasha Yorick.
[00:49:11] She's back on the show talking
[00:49:13] about her new book, Shatterproof.
[00:49:16] You can't miss it.
[00:49:17] - When you grit gaslight yourself,
[00:49:18] you say things like,
[00:49:20] this isn't the hardest thing I've been through.
[00:49:21] Why am I falling apart?
[00:49:23] Other people have it way worse than me
[00:49:25] and they seem to be fine.
[00:49:26] Why can't I just suck it up and deal?
[00:49:28] But what we don't know is we are human beings
[00:49:31] who have a limited amount of resilience.
[00:49:33] And just because we got through everything
[00:49:35] we got through in the past and we're here,
[00:49:37] doesn't mean that we might not reach
[00:49:39] that ceiling at some point.
[00:49:41] - You won't want to miss Tasha,
[00:49:43] so make sure you hit subscribe
[00:49:44] if you're watching on YouTube
[00:49:46] or listening on your podcast app.
[00:49:48] Thanks for listening.
[00:49:49] I'm Kyle Quinlan and this has been Better At Work.
[00:50:01] (upbeat music)